OOC Finger and toes

I feel I’ve stepped out of the wilderness
All squint eyed and confused
But even babies raised by wolves
They know exactly when they’ve been used

See when it starts
To fall apart
Man, it really falls apart
Like boots or hearts
Oh when they start
They really fall apart

Fingers and toes, fingers and toes
Forty things we share
Forty one if you include
The fact that we don’t care -Tragically Hip, Fingers and Toes

Nope, I am not bitter (yet) but I have been in a LOT of discussions about Eve and less play happens as a result.  Between personally imposed projects and sudden topic squirrels that I have to chase down I barely manage to log in and do a bit of trade or make something.

Which leads me to my first question for you. I hear folks say that Eve is primarily a PvP game and that PvE players need to learn to accept that or ‘go back to WoW’.

No.  Because I do not believe the premise that Eve is a PvP game.  I believe that it is a game that has PvP as an aspect of it and that is an entirely different kettle of fish.  There were folks who brought in the market PvP aspects and said that darn near everything we do has an influence on the game but I do not know that that makes it PvP.

So I looked a little further and I am still getting some answers from the folks who made the game. I do not even expect them to be allowed to have the last word, though, because this game is far more than they ever intended.  We the players made that so much more and in ways that the makers never expected us to do.

You, the reader, presumably play this game called Eve.  It is a common ground that we meet upon.  But that being said, I have no expectation that we share more (other than fingers and toes). We each find in the game what we bring to it, we feed the wolves in our own souls with what we make of Eve. It is so many things and so much more than a three letter designation. Go on, try to explain Eve in one or two sentences. Did you cover it? Did you include things like the Angel Project? Goons? Industry and the Market? Is it possible to sum up the mass creation of not just the company but what we, the players, have added to the game?

Probably not.

Which is why I get my hackles up when someone dismisses another persons gameplay with ‘Eve is PvP, live with it’.  I will revisit this, after I have spoken to some more people but I wanted to get the topic out there and see what you had to say.


What do you think Eve Is

How do you explain it in an elevator pitch?

fly it like you won it


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25 Responses to OOC Finger and toes

  1. Space Noob says:

    The chance of PVP in EVE generally makes my PVE. What other game has PVE that is made so adrenaline pumping as EVE where it can all be taken away? The calculated risk, the chancing dare, the convoluted avoidance plots. I’m bad at PVP and want to do it, but I’m mostly a bear and it would hold no attraction at all should that be a safe profession.

    • mikeazariah says:

      So you play PvE because others are PvP and the monsters in your game


      • Space Noob says:

        Maybe! Monsters with real intelligence. Not monsters I can overcome by being learning rules. Sure there are guidelines but thought is required. I must display adaptability!

  2. Eve isn’t all about PvP in the traditional sense. It is however about risk and never being safe no matter where you are in the game, to me that is what makes EVE special, the fact that you have to be eternally vigilant. Because if you’re not you might suddenly lose a ship or pay 1 billion is for 1 trit or spend a month building something without realizing the market prices are heavily manipulated.

    But I think it’s fine if people want to try and stay clear from that type of interaction as much as possible. I’m fine with people never wanting to fire a shot in anger. I’m fine with people just doing missions without ever initiating social interaction. Build you sandcastle anyway you like with any kind of sand you like. I’m cool with that.

    I’m not cool with giving people a safe special bit of EVE though as I think that would corrupt the metaphorical soul of the game, risk is the cor of that soul.

    • mikeazariah says:

      Even for some newbie zones, as Mittens proposed recently and others have asked for for years? Of course, the others did not run a media site so they don’t count, lookin at you, Rixx.


      • To my knowledge you are already not allowed to do shenanigans in the newbie systems 🙂

        Which I am ok with, people need to be able to at least get their bearings somewhat before it becomes open season. That said I actually think players can do a better job at this then CCP. See E-UNI, but also (since you mentioned Mittens) things like Goonswarms newbie program, I’ve wondered at time if they don’t save more new bros for the game with stuff like that then they allegedly drive to quit with stuff like burn Jita, but I suppose we’ll never see any reliable metrics on that.

        Anyway I am no game developer nor do I pretend any knowledge on the subject. I do know that yes I want new players to like EVE so they stay and I get to play with or against or beside them at some point, and so that they can add value to the community.
        I also know that we have to be eternally vigilant about taking risk out of EVE, because that ‘hardcoreness’ is what makes EVE different from everything else out there it’s what makes it special.
        I have enough faith in CCP that I’m sure they’ll manage to cook up something that ultimately works provided the community doesn’t doe the entire pitchfork and torches thing it’s so good at the first second they slightly dislike whatever CCP’s devs cook up! 🙂

  3. Resivan says:

    Eve is the game you’re still playing even though you’ve been unsubscribed for two years and haven’t undocked in three.

  4. Ah, the old argument about whether EVE is a PvP game. It fails instantly, because, as they say, EVE is a web service disguised as a game. PVP makes for a lot of the prettiest screenshots, and grabs the headlines, but (thank goodness) EVE is a whole lot more than that.

    EVE is a suite of interwoven games, and no one plays just one, no matter how hard they pretend.

  5. Art Hornbie says:

    It’s a PvP game. That is why there is no “space” and entities are allowed to grow infinitely (to keep things tightly constrained for PvP). PvE is gameplay for newer players but is simply quick ISK for the more experienced PvP’rs.

    • Vivi says:

      If you are including PvPers, marketeers, and industrialists in your definition of “PvP” than yes.

      Your outlook on PvP can also be used to explain why EVE is PVE oriented. aka space and entities are not allowed to grow indefinitely to keep things tightly constrained for PVE (/marketeers/industrialists).

      One cannot exist without the other.

  6. Dinsdale Pirannha says:

    Love the tragically hip lyrics. (Yeah, I am Canadian too and recognize their universal superiority over all other bands, except of course, Rush.). Bottom line, we are seeing battle lines being drawn between the bloggers (those that have not quit).

    There are those that recognize that griefing (I have zero problems with low sec FW,, or the mayhem that exists in wh space, or “fair and reasonable” high sec wars) is killing the game. And then there are those, that whether brain dead and / or running the show (yes, I listened to Seagull on Xrossing Zebra’s podcast suck the null sec cartel virtual cock) think that highlighting and kowtowing to the null sec cartels and griefing will reverse the falling subscription trend, or they actually are wishing for the collapse of Eve and CCP ,

    Which side will win I think is already decided, unless, in some bizarro world, the failed lawyer gets seagull fired. I figure he will make that happen if he sees his RMT flows drop even further, and he has to make radical moves to save Eve. If her zealotry and slavish love of null sec, but more importantly, griefing, kills subs even further, then the failed lawyer will have to act.

    Oh, and on a far important note, if you have not heard it, listen to Grant Downie do Killer Whale Tank.

    • mikeazariah says:

      Dammit, Dins, Gord, not Grant.

      I haven’t listened to the CZ interview yet though I scanned the transcript on reddit. But, yeah, times they are a changin.

      You have only seen the thin edge so far.


  7. KN says:

    Not an attempt to define EVE, but the way I have described EVE to some people who wanted to get an idea of it:

    Imagine a single player space game of massive scope: thousands of solar systems with tens of thousands of active and interacting NPCs, where you (and all these NPCs) enjoy the choice to explore, fight, trade, build, steal, scam, … etc etc in a roguelike universe with permanent consequences and no instancing or rollbacks. Whatever you chose to do, it would have an impact on (however small), and in turn be impacted by, this single persistent living universe, and in particular your interactions (direct or indirect) with the NPCs, and also (on a much larger scale than your own personal activities) between the NPCs in the background. The cool thing is the NPCs of this single player game play, just as you are playing, in an incredibly realistic way — realistic in the sense that some are smart, some are dumb, some are friendly, hostile, logical, completely irrational, creative, predictable, part of huge groups, solo operators, greedy, generous, aggressive, passive, arrogant, humble … within their respetive fields of operation and according to their own unique motivations. In fact all these NPCs in this single player are so realistic, it’s pretty much like they’re real people.

    Actually, they’re real people. That’s EVE. The term “PvP” in EVE is not at all limited to the competitive sporting sense, or even to a wider notion of combat — it’s a world of resources and opportunities, where being consumed by one player or group of players will typically deny them from others.

    • mikeazariah says:

      I don’t know if that would qualify as an elevator pitch but it is a good description, just the same.

      Thank you


      • KN says:

        A point I try to make is that, if EVE were a single player game with super advanced NPCs behaving like real people, players could complain about the NPCs being extremely challenging, devious and sometimes outright brutal. But they would enjoy it, and the game makers would be praised for being able to make such amazing AI. Likewise, the players would soon identify the easier targets among the NPCs, and it would only be logical to go after those, since you can. In EVE, we have the ideal situation where we don’t need to wait for such advanced AI developments to populate our game with engaging actors. But instead of enjoying the game, players who would have been perfectly OK with (or at least not feel the need to cast moral judgement on) the “single player EVE with NPCs” somehow feel hurt by occassionally being one-upped by real people instead of fake ones. To those guys that are angry at the weird role players who ganked your AFK retriever in hisec while you were cooking dinner, do you *really* believe EVE will be better if CCP were to take this gameplay out of the hands of players and rely only on the (frankly woefully inadequate) NPCs to provide content there?

      • The elevator pitch: It’s an MMORPG, but the RPG means “Roguelike Persistent Game”

        As a longtime fan of roguelikes, I like that. I like it almost as much as Duncan’s take.

  8. Catalina de Erauso says:

    EVE is space themed SF MMO game that revolves about playing it freely as the player attempts to prevent other players to win and/or enjoy and/or play the game. This is done better with the company of other players.

    That would be the most meta metadefiniton of EVE I can think of… it’s not very specific to EVE, but it’s short. 😉

  9. Frag says:

    “Go on, try to explain Eve in one or two sentences.”

    Many nerds
    Flying in space
    Growing neckbeards

    The Lord of Flies
    Got nothing
    On this

  10. Vivi says:

    One game to rule them all, One game to find them, One game to bring them all and in the sand box bind them. In the land of New Eden where capsuleers fly.

  11. Dave Stark says:

    “it’s a sandbox game, about spaceships.” there you go, one sentence to spare as well.

    anyway, i think the reason people say “eve is a pvp game, deal with it” is because the pvp aspect of eve is the only part you actually play.
    look at the pve part of eve. you took a look? great. now, there’s close to none of that part of the game that you actually play. the very vast majority of pve activities in eve boil down to “lock target, hit f1, receive bacon”, usually while watching netflix and/or masturbating.

    people dismiss PVE as part of the game because you play games, yet pve isn’t something you play. it’s something you babysit while watching tv or eating your dinner etc.

    • KN says:

      I think the viewpoint when ratting, missioning etc, is that the game is played at the level of choosing your fitting for the purpose at hand. And at the level above that, the general isk/hr min/maxing game. Whereas in (solo or small gang) PvP, things like ship fitting and general knowledge of (exploting) mechanics is the entry point that enables gameplay to happen, rather than the game challenge itself. Ratting outside of hisec has the additional don’t-get-ganked gameplay element. It should also be noted that your observation goes full circle — ‘“lock target, hit f1, receive bacon”, usually while watching netflix and/or masturbating.’ isn’t too bad a bad description of large scale PvP either.

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