OOC Fear

“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”– Yoda

I have been listening and reading the perpetual debate about cloaky camping and I think the latest Podside episode started to jell the arguments into a more cohesive whole for me.  Where you stand on the issue is strongly influenced by where you live . . . and fear.

Let me explain before you toss the table and started writing a scathing rebuttal that set me back thousands in therapy bills.  Hisec folks barely understand that there is a problem.  Cloak, don’t cloak.  The only worry is a ganker setting up a run but that is not a long term issue, just being sneaky.  Lowsec folks are  used to it, comes with the territory but then they are not so foolish as to rat or do anything else and they often hold no attachment ot a place.

Nullbears.  Now these are the people most against cloaky camping.  It gets in the way of their safe earning of isk.  They have worked hard, organized, gathered to make a home that they can call their own and some dastardly peeking tom is lurking in the bushes, maybe.  It is the maybe that I want to come back to in a bit.

Wormholers.  Everybody cloaks, so what is the problem.,  You assume that there is someone else about and you take the risk or appropriate measures to defend yourself.  Not having a local channel who knows how many people are here with you?  Wormholers have so absorbed the fear and conquered it that they barely understand why this is even considered a problem.

Now each side has issues with why the other security dwellers don’t see it their way.  To some cloaky camping is very close to botting in that you can influence another persons game without being at the keyboard.  The mere hint of presence means you must be willing to accept the potential for a hotdrop anytime the cloaky person returns to his desk and sees you are ‘ignoring him’.  It turns a safe territory into something not so safe with no recourse for the owner.  He cannot ask for 24/7 guards and he does not know when or where the drop will come.

“Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.” – Yoda again

I understand it, honestly I do.  I have chatted with people who take perverse delight in heading into enemy territory with an alt to cloak up and watch.  Intel, and threats, morale breaking and maybe a sweet sweet killmail when you hotdrop somebodies ratting carrier, once they get complacent.  The nastiness of cloaky camping, being in local but unfindable is there and the request for a counter is . . . also reasonable.

A lot of Eve is give and take.  He has guns?  You have a counter, shields and armor.  He has warp dive you have scramble or disruption and then he has warp stabs.  Give . . . take.

He cloaky camps?  You learn to live with it.  As one person on the Podside Cast pointed out.  If he is afk and cloaked then he is not a threat.  He is only an issue if he ‘goes active’.  Of course said person was from what part of space kids?  That’s right, wormholes.  There is not give and take with cloaks unless he screws up royally or is flying in a bomber wing with newbs (been there, seen that).

So there is always a thread calling for a solution . . . .fuel, afk checks, random space debris, something that makes leaving the computer on and you hidden not a possibility.  And the wormholers laugh themselves silly.  My favourite suggestion by them is ‘close local and start d-scanning’  as if not knowing will make you more comfortable than wondering.

We each choose the region of space we play in.  Me, hisec most of the time.  With each space comes an understanding of how things work where you are and a vague idea that other people are ‘doing it wrong’ because they have not come to the same realization as you as to where is the best place to be.

Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.  – Yoda imitating Einstein

Different players, different philosophies and differences in how we react to the same situation.  To judge how another player who has chosen a lifestyle different than yours on whether he acts the same as you would is . . . well as silly as asking the fish to get down out of the oak.  You have your fears and he has his, to each their own.

Where do YOU fall on this issue?  and remember to say where you live the most as I truly think each answer is tied to the other.

fly it like you won it

m

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29 Responses to OOC Fear

  1. Druur Monakh says:

    Actually, not knowing (aka ignorance) can be bliss. It’s not rational, but not actually seeing an opponent in WH-Local gives you the hope that there really is none; whereas an afk-Cloaker in normal-Local is undeniable.

    “Never tell me the odds!” — Han Solo

    (losec, hisec, formerly wh-space)

    • mikeazariah says:

      Oooooh, a counter quote that is right on the money. +1 internets for YOU, sir.

      m

    • mararinn says:

      I’ll see you Captain Solo and raise you a Captain Reynolds:

      Zoë: So… trap?
      Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Trap.
      Zoë: We goin’ in?
      Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: Ain’t but a few hours out.
      Hoban ‘Wash’ Washburn: Yeah, but… remember the part where it’s a trap?

      In null sec people want to believe that they “own” space. Thus the presence of anyone else in their space is cause for alarm, and the inability to remove someone from that space feels like a trespass against their person.

      Mining with a neut in local is the same is mining in w-space, except that in w-space you get D-scan warning you about the imminent arrival of attackers while in null sec you get no warning whatsoever (apart from the neut visible in local).

      In lowsec you just assume that neuts are hostile, and take the appropriate precautions when mining: ventures with lots of WCS, barges/exhumers that remain aligned to some celestial, or simply mine in a ship you can afford to dispose of.

      I’m not sure of the special combination of features that makes people think neuts/reds in local in null sec is worth complaining about when you’d laugh at people complaining about neuts/reds in lowsec local.

      It’s a trap. It’s obviously a trap. So you take precautions and go in anyway.

      Yes, I’m a hi sec care bear so I obviously have no idea about what life is really like in null sec.

      • What precautions can a miner take?

        Laying a trap? I can’t have a 50 man fleet on standby to defend miners.
        Staying aligned and using dscan? Too much work. If I wanted this I’d live in a wormhole.
        Not mining at all? Who else is going to build those replacement pvp ships?
        Move to another system? Two cloaky campers shut down down two systems and there simply aren’t enough station systems available.
        Put your own cloaky camper in hostile staging areas?
        Get your own spy in one of the random hotdrop corps harassing you?

        One cloaky camper is not an issue, I can defend my miner with my own (cloaky) ship on guard. The threat of hotdrop reinforcements is a problem though. And then you realize all those pvp main characters are not here to protect your industrial alt working the nullsec ‘farms and fields’. ‘Real pvp-ers’ don’t have time to defend miners, they are 3 regions away on deployment harassing and cloaky camping hostile miners. These pvp-ers are here to hunt the farms and fields of your enemy or are busy in 10% tidi blobfests.

        How would you protect yourself against the New Order if you are unwilling to pay their license fee?
        Then again, there is a reason those nullsec ores are so valuable, the risk vs reward part.

  2. Wasn’t guerilla warfare meant to be a good thing? Cloaky campers, solo killers, hotdroppers are all part the game and represent different playstyles.

    Cloaky hotdroppers can completely shut down mining across a constellation. Effort required to shut down the cloaky camper is huge compared to the minimal effort required by him to shut down pve. This is hugely annoying. But I HTFU.
    I want to compare this to minerbumping acitivities. In both cases you have hostiles in local that might be harmless or might kill you.

    I am currently living in high sec with some wormhole PI, as it stands I plan to return to nullsec sov space before the end of 2014.

  3. Dee Carson says:

    For me, the core issues are 1. The cloaked ship is un-docked with zero risk and 2. There is no counter to the cloak. Solution? New probe / launcher / skill that only finds cloaked ships. The hunter becomes the hunted. My toons are hi sec & null sec.

    Dee Carson

    • mikeazariah says:

      So a responce to their action or inaction. The give and take I mentioned?

      m

      • Dee Carson says:

        Indeed. You can be cloaked in my system, but if you are AFK and I’m hunting you instead of ratting, you could be in for a bad day. Would also work to allow hunting of folks that just cloak up when a new face pops up in their isolated system. Both an offensive and a defensive concept.

        – DC

  4. Pirate John says:

    i live in low, apparently im not welcome back in high, but why would i want to go there anyways…
    i go about my business everyday with full knowledge that any and all i see in local will kill me given half a chance
    i do have some attachement to the place i call home, if only because thats where my replacement ships is waiting for me

    for me the worst part of any cloakystalker complaints i hear from null people is the hypocrisy

    in one breath they say(while beating their collective chests): look at us, we are fearless and mighty warriors, we conquered this place we call home, tore it from the very grasp of other fearless and mighty warriors but we were the mightiest and fearlessest and we prevailed

    and in the next breath they say: stop anyone from scaring us, we need complete and utter safety while we do our PvE, no risk takers here whatsoever, no sir

    everyone else in this game is supposed to learn to deal with whatever hardships they encounter
    i dont understand why one group should get a free pass, even if that group is fairly vocal, not to mention leet and endgamey

    • Ranamar says:

      I think what they are actually saying is, “We earned…” and then they give a list of things, some of which are reasonable because they’re mechanics-enforced and some of which are not as reasonable but are *usually* safe assumptions. Whether you hear that is a different issue. They complain, when the assumptions are violated, usually violently. Anyway, that’s my experience from being in a major coalition.

      These days, I live in NPC nullsec with an alliance that managed to secure space in Providence, which, IMO, is no mean feat. Since moving out of Providence, we have applied the same philosophy in NPC Nullsec, and, honestly, it seems to play out about the same in Syndicate, even though the people we need to guard against can actually dock at “our” stations. On the other hand, we left Curse when a major alliance moved in to stage 2 systems away from us with overwhelming force… you gotta know when to just fade away and go somewhere more suitable.

  5. Malcolm Shinhwa says:

    I live in a wormhole system. Dscanning and watching for incoming whs is a way of life. But that means that unless the camper is inside, after we close the holes no one is coming in. Even the camper can’t light a cyno and call for backup. We’d rather pvp than shoot sleepers, so….

    “None of you understand. I’m not locked up in here with YOU. You’re locked up in here with ME.” – Alan Moore, Watchmen

    But nullsec doesn’t have as easy a way as whs do to control traffic. Gates are always open and the cloaky probably has a cyno. So you mine/rat deeper in your space so hopefully intel channels report any intruders. Cyno is still a problem, but there are cyno jammer system upgrades. And with Rubicon there is the cyno jam deployable. I haven’t seen it even mentioned on the forums. Is it helpful for countering the hotdrop?

  6. I live in lowsec and take circuits through nullsec every few weeks. I admit, I don’t really understand the big deal. Like the commenter above, I assume everyone I see in local is out to kill me.

    I suppose if you are confined to an area of nullsec and it is cloaky camped then you options are reduced. But aren’t their other options than mining? Go on a roam, do exploration, run a mission, set up bait? Or move 1 system over, if they follow you, move back and camp the gate… If you can’t project enough power to at least safely traverse your own gates then you don’t really control the space.

    🙂
    Governor Tarkin: Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? I think you overestimate their chances.

    • mikeazariah says:

      Yeah, P{personally I think that lowsec folks are the most . . . balanced. They deal with the problems, travel all the highweays and byways and learn to adapt.

      m

  7. Deth Delkanara says:

    I see a couple of things wrong with the cloaky camper:

    1. No counter. They have no risk, you can’t close a gate to them, you can’t scan them and unless they mess up, you can’t find them. Ever. Force projection is far far far too easy in this game and cloaky campers abuse the crap out of that fact.

    2. Balance. You can tank a hulk to take battleship rats in null, it’s been done and still can mine plenty. A single destroyer can rip that same hulk apart with a DPS that used to only be seen in battlecruisers and up. Ship balance is all screwed up when you compare combat ships to indy ships. Freighters can carry whole belts worth of ore but can’t stand up to a shit fit frig? Blockade runners can be popped easily enough and deep space transports, BLEH!

    3. AFK. Let me say it again, Away From Keyboard. People throw massive, multi-page hissy fits about AFK botting, AFK mining (large roids, check in every 10-15 minutes) and AFK income streams (Pi, some market trading, moon goo, renting) yet those same people cry foul with a river of vitriol about trying to do something about AFK cloaky campers. AFK cloaky camping is on the order of botting in it’s unbalance. The only thing making this inane situation untenable is that CCP hasn’t bothered to put an inactivity disconnect into the game. Most other games have them, go inactive for a certain time, do nothing, game input and the game disconnects you to reduce server demand. You get to be an AFK camper without anything. You literally can leave you computer on, turn off IT’s inactivity shutdown and not touch it again until tomorrow, same bat time, same bat crazy mechanic. It should not be possible by the same reasoning that people complain about drone assist, you don’t have to do anything to get the result.

  8. bobfenner says:

    I for one would love to see some form of module that lets me hunt cloaky ships. But it has to be an active module that gives the cloaker some kind of warning they are being hunted. Maybe those of us who have trained all our scanning skills to V can have a new module specifically with this in mind? I am pretty sure this can be done by CCP and the CSM would certainly get brownie points from a lot of players.

  9. Helena Khan says:

    The question I would ask is how is intel gathered otherwise. I spent quite a lot of time in and around the BRT-OP area. Watching people come and go, identifying ships, checking incoming cynos, even finding out what moon goo was being mined, etc.

    While I cannot say that I wasn’t AFK at least occasionally, I WAS active. The issue I see that almost none of this activity is possible without a cloak. You will be seen, you will be hunted and you will die. Quite quickly too, most likely.

    All of that said, as long as there is a counter to cloaking, and on the proviso that it is reasonably balanced, i.e smart piloting on either side affects the outcome, I’m all for it.

    • Deth Delkanara says:

      Having a cloak is fine, having no counter to that cloak is not. And AFK intel gathering, oftne used by alts with minimal skills and a cache scraping program should not be possible. Don’t want to sit and gather the intel, then you don’t get the intel.

      • Helena Khan says:

        I think you missed my point there Deth. I gathered the intel the old fashioned, mark one (virtual) eyeball way. And I agree that there needs to be a counter to cloaking.

        What I am saying is that it should not be overpowered in any one direction. AFK cloakers should be able to be caught, and an on the ball, honest to god scout ought to be a damn sight harder to catch.

        Whatever the solution, getting the balance right is always going to be at the heart of it. For example, if the mechanics can be gamed by volume, then any large alliance are going to be able to hunt down and kill cloaked ships relatively easily….

        On another note – whatever happens, the D-Scan mechanics will most likely also need to be looked at. It’s too accurate in current form out to scan limits imho, especially if the anti-cloaking solution is a grid-wide one.

  10. Andre Grey says:

    Hey Mike,

    This is a very interesting topic you brought up, and the various reactions and opinions are quite intriguing as well.

    As such I would not mind sharing my two cents as well on the issue, with myself spending some time in each of the various zones (being a lone drifter most of time).

    High Sec – most people don’t pay attention to cloak ships. This can be a an issue if they are at war, but otherwise people don’t seem to mind (local being bustling as always).

    Low Sec – as most people living there said, you learn to pay attention. Low sec is often demonized but we learn to use the d-scan often as we travel and expect trouble.

    Null Sec – going to type more here. For me, as a player who spent much time in low sec, and who usually only comes to null sec to try and poach the better DED/exploration sites from local, the cloak on a ship is a must. It also does not give me impunity, I always pay attention to d-scan. In many ways null sec from the perspective of a cloaky pilot (not hot-drop alt) is very relaxing in comparison to low sec. “Local” lets you see when people enter the space, and you can react.

    Now I hear mostly negative comments, and cries for ways to “find” cloaked vessels from Nullbears as you called them, but I find it a great hypocrisy. They ask for “safety” in null, ways to remove an “unknown” threat from local so they can do what … mine without worries? Kill npc ships without disturbance in their shiny carriers/marauders? But is it not exactly the thing they often dis the people in high sec for, this “safety and risk free environment”?

    Personally I think Cloaks and Null should be left as they are, because there is a counter to cloaky ships already in game, and it’s a very simple one at that: “Pay attention”

    Of course we see cries of people, that they are forced to dock up, can’t play the way they want because they don’t know when the drop will fall. But that is NULL space, it is supposed to be that, and players there should be hardened to the dangers so that they can reap the rewards (and by all that’s holy don’t they already?!) when faced with risks.

    Putting cloak-scanner as a prevention would affect much more than just the huge bomber/capital drops on some “brave null sec ratters/miners” it would further seal off a lot of EVE space from other players to benefit of a limited group. As it is, I can go out there now and again in my bomber/strategic cruiser/cloaked ship/etc. to try and find new things and poach some of the wealth from “empty sovereign systems” that the Null Alliances boast are their own, but are mostly unused by anyone. With cloak-scanners I can only imagine those empty spaces would become even less visited because the Alliances would seal off the entries (the few gates to “their space”) and just have semi-afk null bears mine/rat with impunity (“to make the rich even richer”).

    Wormholes – All has been said already by people who live there full time, and as stated above for most of us coming from low sec, the need to pay attention to the d-scan is also inherent when we enter a space where we have no indication of what’s out there.

    To wrap up, a small quote from Star Wars myself, which might be a bit too gratifying to null sec “bears” (but hey they are a bit Wookish):

    Chewbacca: Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrgh!
    C-3PO: He made a fair move. Screaming about it can’t help you.
    Han Solo: Let him have it. It’s not wise to upset a Wookiee.
    C-3PO: But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid.
    Han Solo: That’s ’cause droids don’t pull people’s arms out of their sockets when they lose. Wookiees are known to do that.
    Chewbacca: Grrf.
    C-3PO: I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy, R2: let the Wookiee win.

    (Cheewbacca = Nullbear
    C-3PO = Cloaker/etc.
    Han Solo = the rest of us ).

    • Deth Delkanara says:

      I really appreciate your condescending attitude and completely missing the point.

      What most everyone that lives there wants is a way to deal with the AFK, again since you missed the the first couple of times Away From Keyboard cloaker. The person that is making NO effort to participate, that is making NO effort to gather intel, the person that is simply abusing the fact that the game does not have an inactivity logout to get what they want by automated means. In other words, the person that is botting without the need for a bot.

      Since a large amount of people gathering intel use a cache scraper by doing this or leaving day old alts sitting on gates, this kind of AKF thing should DIAF. Now, if on the other hand, you actually want to sit at your computer and check up from time to time, move your ship or otherwise indicate your activity to the server in some way that isn’t easily bottable, then hey, have at it.

      However, I have to let you know, the argument about nullbears wanting 100% safety coming from people that want to AFK cloak in a system with absolutely no risk to themselves other than when or if they happen to commit an error and absolutely no counter to the cloaking is pretty disingenuous. Even the most sophisticated submarines in the world have to actively work at not being detected and there are active means to detect them even if they do.

      It’s all about risk vs reward to use PvP terms. AFK cloaking has no risk for the rewards of intel and so on. This is not EVE, it is an exploit of the software.

      • Andre Grey says:

        Hello there Deth,

        I am sorry to see you read my post as “condescending”.

        I just voiced my opinion and you do not have to agree with it. Personally I do quite enjoy seeing how passionate you are on the topic and I do try to see your complaints.

        That being said I personally see nothing wrong with the cloaky ships now, that is my point of view. This said I would not cry if there was a way to track down inactive “afk” pilots in space because that opens up quite few more “soft” targets to dedicated PVP hunters.

        I also agree that while being in dangerous space in EVE “afk” should carry the risk of consequence. However I will never come out and voice an argument like:

        “People should not do this, this is not how you play EVE”

        Which is how I read a lot of your reply. I think everyone plays EVE in their own unique way. If they pay for the account (and this includes Plex) it is their own choice how they spend the time in EVE (as long they don’t break any rules).

        From my perspective being “afk” 24/7 is simply wasteful and can only appeal to people who have either too much time, money and/or all above and don’t value them.

        Also keep in mind EVE is a game, it is not RL and for the matter I am quite well versed in the scope of actual ships and shipbuilding, so while I welcome your effort to educate us on the merits and flaws of the submarines please let us not start the topic of finding things underwater as believe me it would be a lengthy one.

        But to get back on track, “bot-ing” is as far as I recall punishable in EVE (this was applied to afk-miners/ratters/spammers) so if you see someone as you describe doing what you suspect is “bot-spying” in your system 24/7 why not report it?

        The practice you described is from what I saw and read not limited to one alliance in null sec but practiced by majority of them. I can well imagine it being quite annoying, but so is scamming, spamming, smack-talking, and a variety of other activities EVE pilots do.

        So my question is Deth, is your alliance using the same tricks for its gain? Perhaps you should lead by example and stop it then.

        Also I do wonder how many “afk” cloaked titans, supercapitals and capitals would suddenly get affected inside null sec with the “afk – cloak – scanner”. Thou honestly that part of the idea would have me all for the introduction of such a module.

        That is how I see it.

        P.S. While we are at it, should we also ban or try to get a module to “forcefully undock” people who keep spinning ships 24/7 inside low and high sec? Seriously it is really annoying to have all those FW targets in system and no one coming to fight.

  11. Deth Delkanara says:

    You were not AFK, you could take steps to safeguard yourself and your ship. Seriously though, you sit in one spot cloaked for hours and people should be able to find you. If you have sensative enough detectors, you could simply watch the stars and trace when they wink out or waiver as well as a dozen other methods I can think of. D-scan is fine as it is, I am not talking some quick fix method, I want to see something that let’s you find people who sit still for an hour or more.

    • Helena Khan says:

      I can’t find the news report which suggests that they can’t do it, so this will have to suffice:

      http://gigaom.com/2013/06/18/nasa-vows-to-track-every-asteroid-near-earth-as-soon-as-it-figures-out-how/

      Occlusion as a method of finding even an uncloaked item, of say 50 meters radius at a range of numerous AU, you would have to be astronomically lucky. Spectral shift, variation in orbit, or gravitational lensing are also extremely unlikely detection methods for something of that size, putting it mildly.

      On another note D-Scan and local are 100% accurate, 100% of the time. That sucks from an intel perspective. There is no grey area. No method of spoofing, no way of utilizing misinformation to direct your enemies strength to places where it is of no use, and no way to hide your own.

      It is however even handed in that everyone gets exactly the same, and is no doubt “working as intended”.

  12. bobfenner says:

    The way I see it if it takes a good few minutes to successfully scan down a cloaked ship then that should give anyone who ISN’T AFK time to warp to a new safe.

    I am not suggesting that you should be able to scan down a cloaked vessel anywhere near as easy as you would an uncloaked vessel, it should be difficult, but not impossible. This would be a fair counter to AFK cloaking and I can only see it as a good thing.

    My reasoning for suggesting the new scanner module needing some, if not all, the scanning skills at V would mean those of us who bothered to train them would have a module that actually uses them.

  13. anom says:

    If u want to negate a cloaked camper u bait it. Then keep baiting it half they time they are on a cyno beacon hoping for an easy jf kill………tbh fuck nullibears the best sites in the game were never ment to be risk free why u think there’s no high sec lvl 5 mish?

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